Terrorism expert breaks down Israel-Gaza tragedy, its bloody history and the threat of an expanded war

Hey there, time traveller!
This article was published 21/10/2023 (747 days ago), so information in it may no longer be current.

Nearly 25 years ago, shortly before the second Intifada in Palestine in 2000, I embarked on a six-month fact-finding tour through five Middle Eastern countries. It was a backpacking journey that had been sponsored in part by an organization then known as the Canadian-Agassiz Institute for Conflict Studies. The head of that organization, and my mentor at the time, was a well-known professor of terrorism, espionage, international relations and Middle Eastern History at the University of Manitoba — Prof. Peter St. John.

The purpose of my trip — which had me seeking interviews from leaders, professors, journalists and ordinary citizens from Egypt, Jordan and Syria to the West Bank, Gaza and Israel — was to recreate, in part, a similar trip that Prof. St. John took in 1982 through the Middle East.

While attending a conference in Israel of Canadian Professors for Peace in the Middle East in June of 1982, the professor witnessed 55 Israeli tanks heading for Lebanon — the start of what would later be known as the 1982 Lebanon War. He has done considerable research on the subject since, but that tour forever informed his view of the Middle East, and of the powers that often exploit it — as did mine. A published author, St. John literally wrote the book on airport terrorism in 1991 — Air Piracy, Airport Security and International Terrorism: Winning the War Against Hijackers.

Since returning from our respective eye-opening and sometimes dangerous tours, Peter and I have kept in touch over the years and renewed our friendship as time has allowed.

Though now retired from daily teaching, Prof. St. John continues to lecture on the subject of terrorism, and is a senior partner in the publishing company Heartland Associates in Winnipeg. He has only this week started another public terrorism lecture course, as part of his Carriage House series that he offers from his Winnipeg home on Zoom.

I caught up with Peter on Wednesday of this week, in the hope of providing readers with a better understanding of the deadly events currently unfolding in Israel and Palestine.

» Matt Goerzen, editor

.

Matt — So obviously you, you and I have spoken on this topic over the years, many, many, many times. Is there anything new or different about this particular conflict that people need to understand?

Peter — Yes.

Matt — Can you explain?

Peter — The beginning of modern international terrorism began with the George Habash, PFLP hijack of an El Al plane between Rome and Tel Aviv. And it was the one and only hijack that the the Israelis have not won. And the result of it was suddenly the Palestinians were there. And they, they had to negotiate or they made the Israelis negotiate. The Israelis realized they’re vulnerable. This was in, I think, June of 1968. It was a turning point. And what happened was, that in 1972, years later, they hijacked four airplanes, and went to Dawson’s field in New York. It was Swiss Air, and it was Pan Am, and there was an Israeli plane.

The Israelis fought the terrorists off and killed them. But three planes ended up with something like 500 hostages, and the hostages were exchanged for Palestinian prisoners. And again, other states had to negotiate with the Palestinians. In 1972, the Palestinians captured 11 Israeli Olympians in Munich at the Olympics. And it was a hell of a show. And something like a third of the world watched it on television. Nearly a billion people saw it on television. And at first, it sounded like it was a total failure, because of the way you know — because it’s such a rotten, nasty thing to do to the West, and to the Germans and to the Israelis.

But gradually, the huge killing — and the statement that this made —was so powerful towards the rest of the world, that by 1976, the (Palestine Liberation Organization) had observer status at the United Nations. The Palestinians were the beginners of modern terrorism, and they started it with a series of absolutely searing nasty, horrible things that led to political results.

Matt — Yes, I recall the history.

Peter — I want you to remember that now in the light of what’s happening now. Now, the parallel is — in Munich … most of the terrorists were killed, and all the 11 Israeli athletes were killed. It was a horrendous, horrible statement. But it got people’s attention. It made them look, it made the Palestinian cause something the world had to pay attention to. Now it’s possible to interpret this is a very similar act where Hamas has planned very carefully, caught the West by surprise. Caught Israel by surprise. Treated people in the kibbutz near them horrendously by taking them hostage — you see the parallels.

Matt — I see where you’re going.

Peter — And even though everybody’s saying this is outrageous, this is terrible — you can’t do this. When you look at Israeli policies under this right wing government of (Benjamin) Netanyahu, towards both Gaza and the West Bank, which has been a divide and rule policy, and it’s been a right wing policy that implements illegal settlements, you know, in the West Bank in particular — do you get the point of what I’m saying here?

Matt — This is a way of trying to get the world’s attention back to what’s happening in Palestine.

Peter — Yes. And the Israelis have given up on the two-state solution and so on, which was the Oslo process of the 1990s, which came to a crashing halt when (Yitzhak) Rabin was killed by an Israeli religious fanatic. There’s a parallel there, and you see that there’s a certain justice on on the side of the Palestinians and the world is going to sort of gradually wake up to things like what Hamas is doing, and say, why haven’t these people got a state? Why haven’t they got self-determination? Why? How far do they have to go to do this?

Matt — I guess the question many people will have, is why should we give statehood to people who are so bloodthirsty?

Peter — This is a bloodthirsty act on the part of Hamas. And I agree that Hamas is behaving outside the rules of law. But terrorism works outside the rules of law. That’s the trouble with modern terrorism. It is a type of warfare which goes outside the rules of war. The Russians are doing it in Ukraine, you know, all sorts of groups are doing it and breaking the rule deliberately to get the attention to try to get their political objectives. You see?

Matt — Yes.

Peter – Now, the other thing is that there is a huge tension between the West Bank Palestinians, with its weak leadership under (Mahmoud) Abbas and the Hamas leadership in Gaza, which is strong and nasty leadership. There’s huge tensions between them and the Israelis. And the tensions keep sort of boiling to the top. And killings and terrorist attempts happen all over the place. But this is because there’s been no progress for these people who are getting more impoverished all the time, and who have no rights, and whose land is being swallowed up by settlers. In other words, there is a case for the Palestinians to have been badly wronged…

Matt — That’s true.

Peter — … After the world community has agreed the principle of national self-determination should apply to these Palestinians. And I think, you know, that part of Hamas is trying to right that wrong. I’m not saying I justify it, or anything; I’m just saying, you got to see it in that context.

Matt — So when you’re looking at this situation now, there’s a lot of disinformation coming out of the situation on the ground. How do you as a professor studying terrorism, studying Middle Eastern politics, how do you separate fact from fiction here?

Peter — It’s very difficult to separate it. And I think one of the most important things for me as a professor is that I have studied this for a very long time. And that I know people in both camps in both communities. And I have been there myself and seen it in practice. I’ve been into Gaza. I’ve been in the West Bank. I’ve been in Israel, I’ve been in Lebanon, I’ve been in Egypt, and I’ve seen for myself. And that is why my judgment is probably worth listening to even if you don’t agree with it.

Matt — (Laughs) I’ve always listened to you from the time I first knew you, sir.

Peter — The thing is that being wildly noisily partisan does not help.

Matt — No, I’d agree with that.

Peter — It’s no good saying, “I support the Palestinians and the Israelis are wicked.” And it’s no good saying, “I support the Jews, and it’s because of the Holocaust, and the Palestinians are being outrageous.” It’s all outrageous. Just all bitter, intercommunal. War is bad, it’s dangerous. It’s horrible. And what makes this conflict so difficult is the Palestinians are still embittered and angry and want their land. And also, they belong to the same group, there’s no racism here. They’re all Semitics. Do you see that?

Matt — Historically, yes.

Peter — And the Jews and the Palestinians operate very much the same sort of way. They are very clever at being nasty, both of them. And they both believe in an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. So, you know, there’s certain aspects of this that you just have to understand. It makes it very difficult, because this conflict has been going on since the time of Jacob and Isaac, you know, that it’s 2,000 to 3,000 years old, whatever it is.

Matt — You and I have talked about this. Hell, I did a paper on it for you in university. The historical aspect of this, it may not matter so much to North Americans, but it has a real significance for the people living there. How much of a presence does ancient history have in the current modern conflict?

Peter — It’s all ancient history, working itself out yet again. Remember that the Jews were dispersed… And remember that the Jews are dispersed all over Europe and the Middle East and so on. And many of them came to Hungary and places like that. And so it’s arguable that many of the modern Jews really became Europeans over 2,000 years. And so when the Jews came back to Palestine, because of the mandate and British policies and so on, it’s arguable they were kind of Europeans, but they were still Jews.

Matt — Right.

Peter — So that’s been an argument that’s been used and so on. But the history of all, the whole thing reeks with history. the Palestinians have djnns — that is the spirits of the land that they live on. And they revere the ancestors in their land, and they believe in the spirits and the djnn, and so on. So when a Palestinian loses his land, and his olives, and things like that, it is deeply personal. And Palestinians believe in poetry, and they write much poetry about their land, that they’ve been exiled from. A million were killed or exiled in, in the 1948 war. And you can imagine that million has changed in the refugee camps and elsewhere, a great deal since then.

Matt — I agree.

Peter — So it’s huge, it’s very important. And the Jews have this kind of well, God gave us this land, you know, as they sit there, you know, in their kibbutz saying, “well, God gave us…” Well, did he? It’s just fatuous as you know, any of the stories, but it happens, but it’s that way, and it gives a special edge to this complex conflict — which is, you know, biblically annotated, as being a possible end of the world scenario. Which, by the way, brings us, Matt, to the issue of whether this war gets out of control, and becomes a general war. Then we are really concerned.

Matt — How likely is this scenario?

Peter — Well, it is a possibility. And I noticed, especially in the last 24 hours, with President Joe Biden trying to go over there. And as somebody said, the Palestinians never lose an opportunity to mess up. It’s not quite put that way. But, you know, they don’t want to meet Biden. But this is the time that Abbas should meet Biden, you know, if Biden, the powerful U.S. is coming out to negotiate with all the people there, they should turn out and stop being stupid. Everybody should. So the issue of the possibility of the 150,000 rockets of Hezbollah raining down on Israel could do incalculable damage to the Israeli state and civilization.

Matt — But who benefits from that?

Peter — Well, nobody benefits from any conflict or war. But it’s something that could happen, right? And it depends on how the Israelis treat what’s happening in Gaza. Because Hezbollah and Hamas are the same, because they are financed by Iran, and encouraged by Iran. And what’s more, there are militias belonging to Iran, which now operate in Syria, because Iran and Russia are keeping Syria afloat. And Syria goes all up and down the west side, you know, the northwest side of Israel. And the result is that you could have attacks from Hezbollah, you can have attacks from Hamas, you couldhave attacks from Syria, which the Israelis are trying to deal with, but you can’t deal with all of these at once. And worst of all, you could have radical attacks of desperate Palestinians, because 80 per cent of Jordan is Palestinian, from Jordan in the East. And let me tell you, if they all acted together, I don’t know if the Israeli state would survive.

Matt — So in terms of all of the other Middle Eastern countries that surround Israel… It has been the practical purpose for these Middle Eastern countries to not patriate Palestinians.

Peter — That’s right.

Matt — In order to keep the Israeli and Palestinian hostility brewing.

Peter — Yes.

Matt — Is that an ongoing practice even now?

Peter — Yes, it is. Except that the Saudis and the Egyptians, and some of them who are reasonable Arab states are ready to do business with and recognize Israel. If Israel doesn’t mess up. And Israel under Netanyahu is messing up.

Matt — Yes.

Peter — It’s in Israel’s hands. It seems to me that Israel needs to have a whole new kind of policy with a whole new kind of government. And if you think that Putin should go from Russia, I tell you, Netanyahu should go from Israel.

Matt — In terms of Israel’s response to the attacks a week and a half ago…

Peter — That was predictable.

Matt — Predictable. But was it unfair? Was it beyond scope?

Peter — It’s the largest attack on Jews since the Holocaust. Yeah. It’s a very large number of Jews who died because of it. And it was done in a very illegal, unlawful — Canadian Prime Minister keeps saying — way. And of course, it was meant to provoke a reaction.

Matt — It certainly did.

Peter — And the question is, was that a reaction to make the Jews even more unpopular throughout the world, and to stop the recognition of the Arab states of Israel? Or is it to stimulate the involvement of other pro-Palestinian elements in a war around Israel? You see, both of those things are valid and possible. So we’ve got to try to see through this situation, you know. In the place of American diplomacy — and I think this is the finest hour for Biden — is that he sees, (a) he needs to be in there and (b) he needs to restrain the Israelis and (c) he needs to bring both sides to a place of equilibrium. And (d) if they’re going to get rid of Hamas, it’s got to be done in a way that’s not going to further destroy the Israeli reputation in the world.

Matt — You saw the news last night about the destruction at the hospital in Palestine?

Peter — I did.

Matt — There are conflicting reports, of course. I saw one report saying that the Russians were trying to disprove that they were responsible for the rocket attack. I saw anther saying that it was a Hamas rocket that was shot and that misfired from the cemetery at the back of the hospital. And I’ve heard another report that it was done by Israelis. I mean, again, we’re talking misinformation.

Peter — The (Israeli Defence Force) has said categorically that it does not fire at hospitals. I know it nevertheless has hit hospitals before. And the Israelis have said that is that they did not send this missile into the hospital, but that Islamic Jihad did it. But if the Palestinians all shout, “the Israelis did it,” all the Arab world is gonna believe them.

Matt — Yes.

Peter — You see, and it already doesn’t matter, almost, unless the Israelis get actual proof, share proof. And even then it’s going to be a problem. You can see that the Hamas is not fighting fair, Matthew. They want as much publicity, as much anger, as much roiling of the whole world and the Arab world in particular over this as they possibly can. And for them, the purpose is independence and the end of Israel. And the Iranians want to get Israel out of the Middle East. And the Iranians want to get the Americans out of the Middle East, and get everybody else from the West out of the Middle East. And they’re prepared to be very long-term patient in doing it. And this is part of it. And the Iranians don’t give a damn about the Palestinians. They’re just using them as cannon fodder.

Matt — One more question for you. One of the biggest concerns is what is happening to civilians on the ground, both when it comes down to Jewish civilians and Palestinian civilians. As you said, Palestinians are being treated like cannon fodder, essentially. What is the ultimate end to this?

Peter — Well, it depends on what the forces on the ground do, Matthew. As I tried to indicate to you, this is a time for outside intervention. Biden is trying to do it. Others need to be drawn into the process. Egypt needs to get in there, Jordan needs to get in there. You know, Turkey, if it’s at all interested, ought to get in there and help to resolve this crisis. Because the implications of not doing it are very, very serious. More serious than Ukraine. And so it depends on the forces on the ground, and the process of diplomacy. And the attempt to, perhaps, to find a whole new way overall. It might involve a crisis in Israeli society, they’ve got to go leftwards. They’ve got to change these right wing policies, if they’re going to live in the Middle East.

Matt — That’s the way forward?

Peter — Something’s got to happen. No more patch up. There’s got to be a new peace process properly implemented and imposed by the people in the area along with the great powers. And by God, if China really wants to be a great power, it should be in there with the Americans.

Matt — Thank you for your time, Peter, and good luck on your course.